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Player/Coach Changes /"The Changing of the Guard"

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#1 · (Edited)
Ok as this is my first thread on GM( and may very well be my last :p ) so be kind.

I was watching TTC here in the states with the European Madrid feed and the commentators were talking about how and why some South American players continually change coaches. Yes it seems to be a fact for some but not all but then the commentators went on to say that the players seemed to point the blame for their doing poorly squarely on their coaches without taking some of the blame on themselves. I thought this was a bit out of line and obviously an opinion although not stated as such.

Now I know many MTF's have opinions and don't mind commentating a bit themselves. But I also think that there are others here who may actually have information to share in this regard. So comment away please ;)
 
#4 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

What the South American coach dance, that is fun and usually Argentines, though Massu has changed a few times, it depends on the player, but at the same time some responsibility has to go on them, it's like it's never the players fault only the racquets when they miss easy passing shots on their break point and go onto lose the match.

Well even the best coaches get fired, sometimes it doesn't work with that particular player and person and other times it does. Since the player is the employer, then they can do what they like with the hired help, if it doesn't work for them, though the commentators make a fair point, each individual has to take some form of responsibility for themselves.
 
#6 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

GeorgeWHitler said:
What the South American coach dance, that is fun and usually Argentines, though Massu has changed a few times, it depends on the player, but at the same time some responsibility has to go on them, it's like it's never the players fault only the racquets when they miss easy passing shots on their break point and go onto lose the match.

Well even the best coaches get fired, sometimes it doesn't work with that particular player and person and other times it does. Since the player is the employer, then they can do what they like with the hired help, if it doesn't work for them, though the commentators make a fair point, each individual has to take some form of responsibility for themselves.
Thanks GWH I figured you would have some info. And why they choose to single out the SA players is beyond me. But again they stated it as a fact without any backing up info.
 
#7 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

cobalt60 said:
Thanks GWH I figured you would have some info. And why they choose to single out the SA players is beyond me. But again they stated it as a fact without any backing up info.
They wouldn't make a claim like that without the info, and actually he used plenty of it when he mentioned Calleri had changed coaches a lot, at the same time Malisse and Safin have had a lot of coaches as well, it was relevant to the case.

I mean Coria for memory has had Davin, Mancini, Blengino, Monachesi and now with Perlas.

Gaudio has worked with Peña, de la Peña, Jaite, Infantino and now Davin.

There are other examples like Zab, Chela and that have changed coaches a lot, then again it's like this in football, if the team does well, then the coach gets praise, a few bad results and then they are gone.
 
#8 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

GeorgeWHitler said:
They wouldn't make a claim like that without the info, and actually he used plenty of it when he mentioned Calleri had changed coaches a lot, at the same time Malisse and Safin have had a lot of coaches as well, it was relevant to the case.

I mean Coria for memory has had Davin, Mancini, Blengino, Monachesi and now with Perlas.

Gaudio has worked with Peña, de la Peña, Jaite, Infantino and now Davin.

There are other examples like Zab, Chela and that have changed coaches a lot, then again it's like this in football, if the team does well, then the coach gets praise, a few bad results and then they are gone.
Interesting and thanks agains especially for all the coaching information. Wow.
Who then has actually had a long term coach; say over 3+ years. Agassi comes to mind but...others?
 
#9 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

cobalt60 said:
Interesting and thanks agains especially for all the coaching information. Wow.
Who then has actually had a long term coach; say over 3+ years. Agassi comes to mind but...others?
There was a point to what they were saying, it needed some background info.
Guga and Passos were together for ages.
Schüttler and Hordoff
Ferrero and his coach
Youzhny and Sokhi
Gaudio and Davin have been together for a while now
Corretja and Duarte
 
#10 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

Argentine Tennis Players and Certain other SA Players and Coaches act like a team, a big team, and usually there are other reasons for the individual changes, family reasons etc rather than negative reasons - and more often than not you will see them back on court with their former coaches with their latest players laughing and joking and supporting each other. AND its no surprise that they often rehire their coaches again too - and if a player forgets to pack their coach for a tournament, more often than not you will find that player working with Hernan Gumy - who in my humble opinon is the "floater coach"

I think it is really great to see the strong "Team Spirit" the South American Team has. More countries could learn from their example.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Re: The Changing of the Guard

Great thread Sue - of course we'll be kind! :hug: Personally - I agree with your commentators - so many players just seem to blame their coaches when things go wrong instead of being mature and adult enough to blame themselves. It's called shifting responsibility instead of facing up to their own shortcomings - and I hate it :devil: The South Americans are renowned for it - though as others have said it's true that other players do it to - Marat being the obvious example..

Of course, sometimes personalities just do clash and they're better apart - though certainly in the case of the close-knit Argentine tennis community you would think they would know that before hiring someone and then changing their mind after a few months :rolleyes: But - half the time in my opinion it's just because the players aren't grown up enough to see that most of the fault for bad losses is their own - not their coaches! After all-no matter how hard a coach works he can't be out on the court playing a match can he - if a player messes it up, - it is down to him - so why blame someone else!? A lot of fans are bad in that regard too - if their favourite loses it is easy to bame the poor coach and call for his sacking instead of accepting their player is not quite the little :angel: they would like him to be!

Btw - GWH - how could you forget the lovely Gaby Markus in your list of Coria's coaches? Mind you - he only lasted a couple of months so maybe it isn't worth remembering :angel:
 
#12 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

since when are the south american players the only ones that blame their coaches for bad results :confused: i'm pretty sure there are quite a few other players that change their coaches like underwear as well.:shrug: it's much easier to blame someone else than accept some responsibility yourself, it's like that in a lot of areas of life.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Re: The Changing of the Guard

basil333 said:
Argentine Tennis Players and Certain other SA Players and Coaches act like a team, a big team, and usually there are other reasons for the individual changes, family reasons etc rather than negative reasons - and more often than not you will see them back on court with their former coaches with their latest players laughing and joking and supporting each other. AND its no surprise that they often rehire their coaches again too - and if a player forgets to pack their coach for a tournament, more often than not you will find that player working with Hernan Gumy - who in my humble opinon is the "floater coach"

I think it is really great to see the strong "Team Spirit" the South American Team has. More countries could learn from their example.
:lol: It`s not that idyllic all the time ;) There are some good cat fights too :eek:
But I agree that the SA players´ relation with their coaches and/or teams can be very different from the one Americans and Europeans (not all of them) players have. I`m not saying they are better, just different...

Rosie said:
Btw - GWH - how could you forget the lovely Gaby Markus in your list of Coria's coaches? Mind you - he only lasted a couple of months so maybe it isn't worth remembering :angel:
I think everyone knew he wouldn´t last much... He was a "transition coach" :lol:
 
#14 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

lau said:
:lol: It`s not that idyllic all the time ;) There are some good cat fights too :eek:
But I agree that the SA players´ relation with their coaches and/or teams can be very different from the one Americans and Europeans (not all of them) players have. I`m not saying they are better, just different...


I think everyone knew he wouldn´t last much... He was a "transition coach" :lol:
But did he know that :p Mind you, he's back with Massu again now - via Giovanni Lapentti and a short stint with Vinny Spadea (what a combination :eek: ). I agree with you that's it's not always idyllic though - far from it - most definately!!!
 
#15 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

Thank you Rosie! I was hoping that you might post-you were someone I knew would have good information. And I didn't mean to single out any one group of players. It is just that the commentators did and made it seem that the SA's were different as a whole group. That one bit is what disturbed me somewhat.
And Paulie-very true about life in general but I won't go into philosophical/psychological issues about why people throw the blame onto others.
 
#16 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

Rosie said:
Btw - GWH - how could you forget the lovely Gaby Markus in your list of Coria's coaches? Mind you - he only lasted a couple of months so maybe it isn't worth remembering :angel:
One of Coria's short-term coaches was a pre-arranged temporary stint, that may have been Markus? I also heard a rumor that Coria parted with Mancini over personal reasons, that Mancini objected to him marrying Carla. Personally, I'd choose a spouse over a coach any day.
 
#17 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

cobalt60 said:
Thank you Rosie! I was hoping that you might post-you were someone I knew would have good information. And I didn't mean to single out any one group of players. It is just that the commentators did and made it seem that the SA's were different as a whole group. That one bit is what disturbed me somewhat.
And Paulie-very true about life in general but I won't go into philosophical/psychological issues about why people throw the blame onto others.
Mine of useless information - that's me :angel: I do understand where your commentators are coming from though as I said before - you only need to compare the usually short-lived South American coach/player partnerships with the likes of other combinations such as Piatti/Ljubicic, Volandri/ Fanucci or Schuettler/Hordorff to see that they do have a bad track record! The only really long-standing South American coach/player relationship I can think of was Guga/Pasos which lasted many, many years, and even that was more a personal almost "Father/Son" thing after Guga lost his Father very young, than a "normal" coaching relationship. Most others barely last 18 months (often a lot less!)
 
#18 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

ATennisFan said:
One of Coria's short-term coaches was a pre-arranged temporary stint, that may have been Markus? I also heard a rumor that Coria parted with Mancini over personal reasons, that Mancini objected to him marrying Carla. Personally, I'd choose a spouse over a coach any day.
Blengino was the temporary one I believe, not Markus,- though I accept that as a big Coria fan, you would know more than me in that regard. As for the Mancini split - I believe there were personal reasons involved and I'm sure that Mancini may have thought Coria was too young to get married and his new life might detract from his tennis ambitions - but there must have been other reasons as well - I couldn't tell you.
 
#19 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

Rosie said:
Btw - GWH - how could you forget the lovely Gaby Markus in your list of Coria's coaches? Mind you - he only lasted a couple of months so maybe it isn't worth remembering :angel:
I didn't mean to forget Gaby Markus, it was an oversight, but he has been around the block as well, before coaching weasel, he was also with Nalbandian and the others you have mentioned. I think with Coria and Markus, it wasn't meant to be temporary, though coming back too soon at the TMC last year couldn't have helped.

Come to think of it Feña with De La Peña have been together for quite some time, he was also coaching Acasuso at the time, Chucho came on the tour.

Mancini well they had their reasons for splitting.
 
#20 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

GeorgeWHitler said:
I didn't mean to forget Gaby Markus, it was an oversight, but he has been around the block as well, before coaching weasel, he was also with Nalbandian and the others you have mentioned. I think with Coria and Markus, it wasn't meant to be temporary, though coming back too soon at the TMC last year couldn't have helped.

Come to think of it Feña with De La Peña have been together for quite some time, he was also coaching Acasuso at the time, Chucho came on the tour.

Mancini well they had their reasons for splitting.
Yes - you're right about Horacio and Feña - must be a couple of years now. Horacio is also working with the young Chilean hope Paul Capdeville, so he must be a busy man ;)
 
#21 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

Rosie said:
Yes - you're right about Horacio and Feña - must be a couple of years now. Horacio is also working with the young Chilean hope Paul Capdeville, so he must be a busy man ;)
Horacio is too busy - I would like to see him focus on Fernando a bit more. He does also coach Paul (and Etlis and Rodriguez) as well as having a school in Chile.

Great coach though - I like that he's with Fernando - hope they stay together a long time to come.

Hope Nico keeps Gaby this time...lol!...because he has changed coaches every year. Gaby is a great coach - time to stick with one!
 
#22 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

Rosie said:
Personally - I agree with your commentators - so many players just seem to blame their coaches when things go wrong instead of being mature and adult enough to blame themselves. It's called shifting responsibility instead of facing up to their own shortcomings - and I hate it :devil: The South Americans are renowned for it - though as others have said it's true that other players do it to - Marat being the obvious example..
I hate it too,Rosie. Your comment has reminded me about other stuff as well. :sad: But yes as you and GWH have alluded to, the commentators were talking about how strange that the changes happen so much. And I remember reading that it also takes a significant amount of time for a coach to actually help a player but that the "time" issue is overlooked.
BTW when did Davin go back with Gaudio? I thought they were a done deal earlier this year? They have made up?
 
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#23 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

Yeah, Horacio is working with Feña and Paul at the same time ;) I didn't know about Chucho :yeah:
Hmm I don't think it's a SA players problem.. it depends of the player a lot.. If a player has bad character (like Massu) is going to change of coaches till he feels good..
 
#24 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

cobalt60 said:
I hate it too,Rosie. Your comment has reminded me about other stuff as well. :sad: But yes as you and GWH have alluded to, the commentators were talking about how strange that the changes happen so much. And I remember reading that it also takes a significant amount of time for a coach to actually help a player but that the "time" issue is overlooked.
BTW when did Davin go back with Gaudio? I thought they were a done deal earlier this year? They have made up?
Gaston and Franco got back together just before the US Open - but their present contract is only temporary until the end of this season - then they will re-evaluate and see whether they want to continue together next year or go their separate ways. As for the time thing - well a friend of mine who is a professional coach told me that you need about 3 months to even get to know your new player,and then at least another 3 months on top of that to begin to help them. So realistically, anyone who expects quick results in less than 6-9 months with a new coach is going to be disappointed.

And guess I know what "other stuff" you are referring to :sad:
 
#25 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

Rosie said:
Gaston and Franco got back together just before the US Open - but their present contract is only temporary until the end of this season - then they will re-evaluate and see whether they want to continue together next year or go their separate ways. As for the time thing - well a friend of mine who is a professional coach told me that you need about 3 months to even get to know your new player,and then at least another 3 months on top of that to begin to help them. So realistically, anyone who expects quick results in less than 6-9 months with a new coach is going to be disappointed.

And guess I know what "other stuff" you are referring to :sad:
Thanks Rosie. I took a short break after that but my love of tennis is stronger thankfully and the addiction to MTF hard to break ;)
 
#26 ·
Re: The Changing of the Guard

Nice thread Sue.

Well here, it is the opposite. Good coaches are hard to find. So, they tend to put the blame on the player when he gets poor results. They are the choosy ones.

From personal experience, my son has been with his coach ever since he started palying except for a very short period. Two years ago, he had a nasty fight with him and decided to change him. As he is the one playing, I don't interfere with his decisions. He was mad because he thought his coach didn't pay much attention to his weak points and thought he was not helping him enough overcome them. He stayed with another coach for 5 months (one of the best available, considered even better than his own coach) and his level really took a dive. There was no chemistry (another important factor) between them and they never liked each other. He was too proud to go back to his old coach.

Fortunately for him, after seeing his results, his old coach gave him a call and asked him if he wanted them to work back together. My son accepted immediately and they've been together ever since. Because he is young and not yet on a "professional" level, he is very emotionally attached to his coach. He looks up to him as a big brother and will not hear of changing him.

The point is, when you are a professional and can afford it, if your coach isn't giving you the results you are looking for, you will most probably change him. I think most players are mature enough to know and evaluate where the responsibilities lie. If they keep kidding themselves that their results, or lack of them, are solely the responsibility of their coach, they will never reach the level they are aiming for, even if the coach plays instead of them. ;)
 
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